UPDATE: As of Tuesday, January 10, 2012, the Desiring God article in which the Roman Catholic mystical practice of Lectio Divina was promoted has been changed. Notes author Jonathan Parnell:
"Formerly I listed Lectio Divina as a third system for prayer. I've since removed it for the confusion it has caused. We do not endorse contemplative spirituality. The main point I'd like to recommend is using the text of Scripture as an organizer for our prayers — prayers that are exegetically faithful and gospel rich. I'm sorry for introducing the category."While I appreciate the quick response by Desiring God (due in some part, I'm sure, to the ensuing uproar), John Piper still recommends resources by contemplative mystics on his church website. So yes, the Lectio Divina article teaching mysticism was pulled, but other concerning items that promote mysticism remain.
This post should be filed under the category of "Very, Very Sad."
The Desiring God article in question points us to author Kenneth Boa, a Thomas Merton quoting mystic. That's right, the very same Thomas Merton who said he wanted “to become as good a Buddhist as I can.”
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| Kenneth Boa, Devotional Spirituality, Part 7, "The Practice of Sacred Reading" |
While it could be hoped that Kenneth Boa means nothing more than deeply contemplating Scripture (as Scripture commands), sadly, he makes it clear in one of his articles that, when discussing the practice "Contemplative Prayer," he is not merely talking about deeply and mindfully contemplating God's Word (as many Christians might think this term means). No, what he is pointing his readers toward is how to enter into an altered state of consciousness not for the purpose of learning mindfully about God, but to instead have some kind of subjective impression or experience of God. This is mysticism.
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| Kenneth Boa, Devotional Spirituality, Part 6, "The Practice of Sacred Reading" |
Nowhere in Scripture are we taught that we have to get really silent and "listen" for God to speak to us, or, wait silently for God to "shape" us in some mystical way. Yes, the Holy Spirit guides us, and yes, there is some mystery about how this happens, but we have to go by Scripture. Jesus taught:
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength." Mark 12:30 (my emphasis)
"But you, dear friends, must build each other up in your most holy faith, pray in the power of the Holy Spirit." Jude 1:20
"Pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints." Ephesians 6:18 (my emphasis)We are to pray in the Spirit, staying mindfully alert. This is the Christian practice of prayer, and it stands in direct contrast to the pagan practice of "mystical prayer," which is to empty one's mind and go into an altered state of consciousness, sometimes called an Alpha state. Scripture doesn't teach going into an altered state of consciousness so that we can get some kind of mystical message from God. However, pagans of all stripes DO engage in this mind emptying practice.
First let me start with explaining why a person is unable to learn mindfully about God in an altered state of consciousness: it is because the mind, after following the techniques encouraged by Kenneth Boa (and now the Desiring God's website), is now in a controlled, light hypnotic trance. These techniques enable people to go into a state in which they are neither fully awake, nor fully asleep....they are somewhere in the middle. They are in an Alpha state. But in this state (well known throughout the occult world, incidentally), the mind is parked. It's in neutral. It can only receive information, much like a radio receiver, and is unable to critically process data. And as mentioned above, mystics throughout the ages have always had "culturally personalized" techniques for achieving this state of mindlessness:
Hindus/Buddhists - Mantra meditation
Muslim Sufis - Chanting and ritual dancing
Judaism - Kabbalah
Chinese/Japanese - Taoism
Native American Indians - Drumming and peyote
Roman Catholic Monks - Lectio Divina, Contemplative PrayerAll of these mystics - with widely divergent cultural customs and differences - have one thing in common: some kind of technique for shutting down the mind, and something we are never told to do in Scripture ("Be alert!"). My Christian friends, this practice of emptying the mind is dangerous, dangerous teaching, and as a former mystic, I can attest to the fact that, rather than leading one to God, it leads practitioners instead into the demonic realm. Please pray that God would open Dr. Piper's eyes to the dangers of this practice his website is now encouraging.
ADDED NOTE 1/10/2012: My sister made a very good comment in the comment section below about there being a time as a new Christian, for her, when John Piper's teaching actually helped her get free of mysticism (because she came out of the same New Age mysticism that I did). And she's right: there was a time when John Piper did not teach these things. Here was her comment:
"One of the saddest things to me is that John Piper actually helped me come out of my Christian mysticism. When I began realizing that a lot of what is called Christian teaching these days is just pagan practices sprinkled with Christian terminology and some Bible verses, I looked to the the Bible and to good Bible teaches to help me answer two basic questions: How does God communicate with us? And what is prayer? It was some teaching by John Piper specifically on that second question that really helped me. He was very clear: prayer is us talking to God- it is not like a telephone conversation where I talk and then God talks. He said God speaks to us through scripture. I could stop looking for signs and clues and hunches and feelings- I could just read God's Word and know that God was speaking clearly and openly to me. It was so freeing."And in fact, after Cathy commented, in reflecting back I also remembered how she had labored over this issue with me when I was a new Christian and she was discipling me. She really worked to help me understand this strange new concept of how it is that God communicates with us. It was extremely freeing for me as well, having come out of mysticism, where you're always trying to figure out out if the sign/nudge/ dream/vision/impression / etc. that you received was really from God. It was just, open up your Bible and read. Really? Really. So freeing So unmystical. Not to mention, so biblical.
Additional Resources
John Piper's Bethlehem Baptist Church Endorsing Books by Contemplative Spirituality Mystics Dallas Willard and Richard Foster
Beth Moore and John Piper Lead "Lectio Divina Lite" Prayer at Passion 2012 Conference
Just Do Something: How to Make a Decision Without Dreams, Visions, Fleeces, Open Doors, Random Bible Verses, Casting Lots, Liver Shivers, Writing in the Sky, etc. - by Kevin DeYoung
Just Do Something - by Kevin DeYoung (audio)
Secular Interview About What Mysticism Is - BBC Radio Program
What Is Mysticism? (Sola Sisters Article)
What Is Mysticism? (3-Part Series by Dr. Gary Gilley) - Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4 and Part 5
On John Piper and Lectio Divina
Biblical Silence vs. Mystical Silence
Testimony of a Former Mystic
Rick Warren Gets John Piper's Stamp of Approval?
Over a year ago, our pastor was teaching from a book by Piper. I mentioned all that was becoming evident at that time - to no avail. NOW it appears the Mr. Piper continues to travel that slippery slop so many have chosen. Indeed our LORD is separating the sheep from the goats. May the remnant cling to God, praying for discernment in the weeks and months ahead so that we too will not be blown around by every wind of doctrine.
ReplyDeleteI so appreciate your posts. LORD bless.
One of the saddest things to me is that John Piper actually helped me come out of my Christian mysticism. When I began realizing that a lot of what is called Christian teaching these days is just pagan practices sprinkled with Christian terminology and some Bible verses, I looked to the the Bible and to good Bible teaches to help me answer two basic questions: How does God communicate with us? And what is prayer? It was some teaching by John Piper specifically on that second question that really helped me. He was very clear: prayer is us talking to God- it is not like a telephone conversation where I talk and then God talks. He said God speaks to us through scripture. I could stop looking for signs and clues and hunches and feelings- I could just read God's Word and know that God was speaking clearly and openly to me. It was so freeing.
ReplyDeleteThank you for sharing this. It's quite sobering, as Piper is very looked up to by many believers. His endorsement of these mystical practices will no doubt have far-reaching effects.
ReplyDelete:(
ReplyDelete:(
ReplyDeleteGrieving.
ReplyDeleteI spent the past year trying to "empty" my mind and "hear" God speak to me. I prayed for the "gift" of tongues so I could have a prayer language. I felt so frustrated when I didn't recieve that "gift". I felt anger, condemnation, pity for myself, wondered why God wasn't speaking to me. Then, just a month ago, after reading your blog and listening to some sermons (john macarthur) it was like a light bulb came on and I realized all I have to do is READ GODS WORD! Of course, I knew the Bible is God's Word to us, but it didn't click with me. I was always going to MANS books, MANS articles, MANS blogs, etc. to try to learn to hear from God and know His will. Now I go straight to THE WORD, the BIBLE, and God is speaking to me. Like Cathy said above, it is SO FREEING! The frustration is gone! I am digging into my Bible every day, any verses that speak to me that day I write on a note card and tape them up around my house and I meditate on those verses daily. I still read articles and blogs written by others, but God's Word is first and foremost. God is SO WONDERFUL and FAITHFUL! ~tlm
ReplyDeleteYou're not the only one, Christina.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous/Tim - I can't tell you how encouraging your comment was to me at this time.
ReplyDeleteIt's pretty sad alright.
ReplyDeleteJesus did NOT say sanctify them by (silence).
He said "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."~John 17:17
Psalm 51:6 "Surely you desire truth in the inner parts; you teach me wisdom in the inmost place".
Hebrews 13:8-9a "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings."
I spent the past year trying to "empty" my mind and "hear" God speak to me. I prayed for the "gift" of tongues so I could have a prayer language. I felt so frustrated when I didn't recieve that "gift". I felt anger, condemnation, pity for myself, wondered why God wasn't speaking to me.
ReplyDeleteThe Lord be praised; this comment hits the heatr of the matter. We're seeing a rebirth of Gnositicism.
"Yes, you may be Christian; but you still need the 'deeper life' we offer.'
Though it grieves me, I really appreciate you sharing this, Christine. Piper was very influential in helping me to build a framework of Biblical theology several years back. I am much in debt to his ministry.
ReplyDeleteI know that my tendency is to try to find a teacher whom I can trust and then swallow whole everything he teaches. This sort of thing serves as a reminder that we must each be discerning and deep in God's Word.
We have such unprecedented access to the Bible. On that day, when we are called to give an account, our answer of "But Piper/MacArthur/Whomever said..." will surely be met with, "What did My Word say?"
I am hoping that there will be some pushback on this and we see a renunciation from Piper.
It is very sad indeed and honestly a little scary for me. I truly cannot believe all these "Christian" leaders who are now going down these dangerous roads and at the same time, taking millions with them. My husband and I looked up Piper's Desiring God website and found an interview he did on contemplative prayer from May 2010 where he specifically speaks out against the mystical contemplative prayer "as taught by the Roman Catholic church and mystics". He says that outright! What happened in less that 2 years? He was warning against it and now he is leading 20,000 kids in doing it. I am clinging to my Word now more than ever!! I am also so thankful for your website because it has been such a wealth of information to me since I began reading it over a year ago. I am praying for us all!!
ReplyDeleteIt is plain creepy that so many are not engaged in their Bibles to see what they are doing is NOT what the scriptures teach but something called heresy. 2 Ti 4 covers it well... scratching their itching ears.
ReplyDeletePiper and Moore read a handful of scriptures out of context--- then say now wait and let Jesus speak to us each in the silence --- LITERALLY and DIRECTLY. When in fact when we meditate we are not to be clearing our heads but filling it with the Bible which is His Word to us. Some will argue it sounds like splitting hairs - it is not! What Piper and Moore are teaching is a form of Transcendental Meditation (and there are several other names) - I know I used to practice it before coming to Christ! 'Lectio Divina' is a concoction of men AT BEST but I say a doctrine of devils. What these teachers are doing is unprecedented in what is supposed to be conservative Bible believing churches!? Wow!
In my opinion, things like the old Promise Keeper movement opened the doors and other conferences since its fading away brought ecumenical thinking with the Roman Catholic Church. Now they come in setting up shop in more conservative churches with their mystical practices with so-called leaders as these guiding the way in! Shameful!
Enough light from the Bible needs to be applied to these dangerous false teachings or it will sweep through conservative circles as never before in my opinion at least!
hmmm I think its kinda sad that you go through and remove all the peoples comments that disagree with you, only the people that echo your post (yes youre right, piper is a fake) gets to keep their post up. nothing like seeking the truth! I think its lame that you are so busy tearing down someone who is spreading the love and word of God through out the world that you haven't done anything. The crowns piper has in heaven will make you ashamed. that man has such a passion to know and love God, wish we could all learn from him.
ReplyDeleteafter approval????? really???? that is sad. you are too ashamed and cowardly to approve anything that doesn't agree with you. if anyone heard a logical arguement from the other side they might realize your post is pathetic... wouldn't want that would we. well I know no one else will see this post, so just between you and me, you really should find something else to do with your time that might advance the kingdom of God instead of cutting down people who are actually doing it. its lame. it is hurting the kingdom of God. it is sad
ReplyDeleteAnonymous - LOL - have there been posts removed that I don't know about? I honestly have no idea what you're talking about there.
ReplyDeleteAnd for future posts, I would be happy to interact with you if, that is, you are able to interact with the data in question. Otherwise, I will not post your comments. But that's how it works in discernment, my friend. People can't just come on and pout and whine about how mean and judgmental we are and ignore the facts that we are reporting on.
And "Anonymous" - might I point out that my name is known and yours is not. So who's the cowardly one here?
Christine
Ken Silva and anonymous January 7, 2012 7:12 PM
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry you 2 went through such a grievous lie. I can only imagine how very hurtful and destructive it can be to a child of God thinking maybe he doesn't care. I'd be questioning whether or not I'm his child..Praise the Lord for His unfailing love for you both your Rescuer your Deliverer Abba Daddy!~~
In my 15 years as a Christian I've never "emptied my mind" to "hear the voice of God"-it's just not biblical. Job 11:3 "Will your idle talk reduce men to silence?"
I don't see anything healthy about silence in the bible. In fact the opposite is said for what we are to do and how to use our minds(be alert)even when praying-1 Peter 1:13,1 Peter 5:8, 2 Cor.10:5, 1 Thess.5:6, Eph.6:18. What Mr Piper and Beth Moore are doing is in disobedience and in stark contradiction to what God's word clearly says. God's word is the "Sword of the Spirit"-Eph.6:17 and to put our sword away into our sheath just disarms us as sitting ducks for the enemy--he just loves that. God wants his word to dwell in us richly-Col.3:16.
I can tell you how (I believe) it probably happened with John Piper. He had one huge (subjective experience)-and now he's hooked and has dropped everything including truth.
I read this article by John Piper called "The Morning I Heard the Voice of God"-march 27, 2007 and I truly believe that was the turning point for him towards the wrong direction. He never once tested the spirits to even see if it was even from God.
Given the antagonistic nature and ambiguity of this article I feel that it needs to be addressed with careful consideration. There are several reasons that I find it to be misinforming and less than sufficient, to say the least.
ReplyDelete1.) John Piper's ministry has been one of such fruition and dedication to the truth of God's Word that to hastily assume his entire theology is erred because he endorses something that is not well understood is, to me, not a sign of Spiritual maturity or concern, but rather, quite simply, arrogance. Take a second to evaluate which makes more sense in the given circumstance: that one of the most prolific Bible teachers of all time is misinterpreting Scripture and leading "20,000 kids" (of whom I was one) astray in heretical fashion or that a handful of people have misinterpreted him to have "dropped everything including truth". I find it difficult to seriously read something which jumps to such radical generalizations with limited understanding and information.
2.) I was fortunate enough to be among the students at Passion 2012 during the session which is in question. The session consisted of the teachers reading from Scripture and then taking a moment to say, "Jesus, speak to me." Again, to assume leaders such as Lecrae Moore, Beth Moore, Francis Chan, Louie Giglio, and John Piper were endorsing mysticism in any form makes me question the discernment of those begging such questions. Two things took place in that session: we read Scripture, which seemed Biblically sound to me, and asked God to speak to us. Seeing that "the things of God are Spiritually discerned" it likewise seemed Biblical for His Spirit to discern the things of Himself. If there was unsound theology anywhere present then I must have been too caught up in the mystical realms to notice.
3.) Finally, it appears that Jonathan Parnell (who wrote the article in question, not John Piper) has taken something he finds to be profitable from someone to whom he does not claim to hold any unyielding allegiance. If Kenneth Boa were to claim that we should honor our parents, it would not be rational to state that because he is a mystic then anyone who endorses his form of obedience needs to repent and believe. Jonathan Parnell (again, John Piper did not write the article she refers to) never mentions anything that goes against the Word of God. Were you to actually find on the Desiring God website something that was contrary to Scripture then it would be easier to take this article seriously.
I appreciate your desire to benefit the Kingdom of God, which is evident in maintaining such a blog. My only concern is that you be more sensitive and deliberate with the issues being handled and to make sure that everything is in line with Ephesians 4:29. I hope this can help some see the situation a little more clearly. Due to the temptation to allow this to become a venue for anonymous ridicule I will leave my comment open to discussion and will not be responding to any rebuttals. I hope for the continuing success of such a dedicated website.
S.
S. Mitchell -
ReplyDelete(1) You wrote that I have rushed to "hastily assume (Piper's) entire theology is (in error) because he endorses something that is not well understood..."
Perhaps you could take some time to look over some of the other posts on this blog which are generally directed at helping people understand the dangers of mysticism and New Age teachings, and how they are coming into the church. I can assure that these things are very well understood by me, as I lived these false beliefs for a decade of my life.
Also, for the record, I do not believe that Dr. Piper has "dropped everything including truth." I think he is straying theologically, but I am not yet prepared to say he is not a brother, not even close. I am concerned.
(2) The biblical understanding (not to mention the guiding Reformation principle) for communication between Creator (God) and the created (man), is that God speaks to us through his Word. As Pastor Justin Peters has said so often: "If you want to hear from God, read your Bible; if you want to hear audibly from God, read your Bible out loud." Mysticism is for pagans, S. Mitchell, not Christians, who have the holy, inerrant, inspired Word of God.
(3) I have not attributed this article to Dr. Piper. I am well aware that Jonathan Parnell is the author. However, as this article was published on the Desiring God website (with the tagline that reads "God Centered Resources from the Ministry of John Piper"), one can only presume that this article has Dr. Piper's blessing. That is very sad indeed, as it means that one of the foremost Bible teachers in the country today, and one who has been regarded as one of the primary guardians of the purity of the gospel message, has given his blessing to teaching which is unbiblical.
Update: Formerly I listed Lectio Divina as a third system for prayer. I've since removed it for the confusion it has caused. We do not endorse contemplative spirituality. The main point I'd like to recommend is using the text of Scripture as an organizer for our prayers — prayers that are exegetically faithful and gospel rich. I'm sorry for introducing the category.
DeleteJonathan Parnell
Dana - As soon as this update appeared by Jonathan Parnell, I changed the article above to reflect that this change had been along, along with Parnell's explanation of the removal of this article. And while I appreciate the quick response by Desiring God (due in some part, I'm sure, to the ensuing uproar), John Piper still recommends resources by contemplative mystics on his church website. So yes, the Lectio Divina article teaching mysticism was pulled, but other concerning items that promote mysticism remain. But hey, it's a good start.
DeleteJude 3 states: "...exhorting you to contend earnestly for the character and reputation of your favorite false prophet" Gee I hope I got that right, it would be terrible to mis-quote scripture. Piper's trip down this mystic road is only a continuation of his slide away from the faith and further into heresy. So now we are to give him another "pass" just like we were required to do after his endosrement of the Federal Vision heresy (basically salvation by works) and after his love affair with everyone's all-American pastor Rick Warren. I wonder if all the attendees of this conference had their ears scratched suffciently and are still eagerly waiting to the "voice of god"?
ReplyDeleteOne can always spot the apostles of false prophets by how they run to the defence of a man instead of the Word of God. Another tell-tale sign is how they spread their poison and then run for cover (of darkness) in the name of unity and not starting any "controversy", wouldn't you agree S. Mitchell?
Darrel
Anonymous at 2:26 and 2:29, did you ever stop to think that you are doing the very thing that you are accusing Christine of doing? Christine's tone in this post is that of warning and love for Piper (thus her loving plea in the last sentence of this post). Your tone is pure name-calling vitriol. If you claim the name of Christ then Christine is your sister, even if you disagree with her here, and for that reason alone you could have made your opinion known in a more mature way. You needn't cut her down to defend Piper. I love John Piper and have learned much from him and been exhorted by him. I believe he is my brother in Christ. But that doesn't mean He walks on water or that we should take everything he says as from the mouth of God--and he would be the first to tell you that.
ReplyDeleteI, too, am grieving because I love John Piper and what he is promoting here is not biblical. However, I am also rejoicing. You see, I used to fall into despair every time a well-known pastor would fall into sin or promote something unbiblical but now I can thank God for times like these. They remind me that I am following the one true God whose Son is Jesus and not any man. It reminds me to cling to His Word and to always measure a message from any pulpit by the truth of His Word and not the reputation of the pastor. In other words, I have grown in discernment. And I have learned never to vehemently defend any high profile pastor because any of us can be on the verge of falling to temptation or sin and no man's reputation is as important as God's reputation--which, I might add, many of us are not willing to defend as vehemently as we may defend our favorite preacher/teacher.
Jehovah M., I heard the audio of the article transcript you mentioned, "The Morning I Heard the Voice of God". Did you read it through? I ask because when I first began to listen to it I thought, "uh-oh" but by time I got to the end I realized that he was simply making the point that God speaks to us through His Word. It was cleverly done because you initially think he's saying that he heard God audibly speaking to him when in fact, the "words" he says God spoke to him that morning are simply scriptures. But the point he makes there is a great one. We can hear God Almighty speak to us every single day when we open up His Word. The God who did all these amazing things in the Bible is waiting to "speak" to us when we open His Word. It showed me how cynical I'd become when it comes to understanding that God has spoken and is speaking through His Word whenever we read and study it. But do we approach our daily Bible reading in such a way? Piper really challenged me with that. If God called me on the phone I'd run to get it just to hear what He'd say to me but I sometimes neglect my daily bible reading. God speaks as clearly as if He is "speaking" audibly when we read His Word.
Christine, I am so glad that you do these posts. I was saved out of the Word of Faith movement so the new age stuff gets by my radar sometimes. Plus new age concepts are so mainstream nowadays that I don't even recognize them as such. Like, "in lectio you are seeking to be more shaped by the Word than informed by the Word" would have sounded good to me even a couple of years ago. This post really helps flesh out the meaning behind some of these words that sound good on the surface to those of us that have little experience with new age concepts.
Cathy, I can't tell you how much I love the profile picture of you and Christine. It brings tears to my eyes every time I see it.
Charlene - I appreciate your encouraging words. Like you, I thank God that He has grown me in discernment, and has shown me - the hard way, many times - that my trust is in Christ alone, and not any man. A painful lesson, but one that so many of us need to learn. For myself, I apparently need to learn it over and over and over....
ReplyDeleteAnd you're right, nobody's hatin' on Dr. Piper....we're concerned.....
S. Michell,I think you need to take seriously the Sola Sisters' warning in this article. Why? Because they know first hand about these things, having practiced mysticism and New Age religion before they came to know Christ. Unlike you and I, they recognize the New Age when they see it. They are not writing to be anatagonist or unkind, but to warn. And that is a loving thing to do on their part rather than to keep silent. By speaking up, they put themselves into the heat of battle for the truth and I applaud them for it ... thankful for their boldness to warn the Body of Christ. We are living in perilous times...The End Times. The Bible warns us that the deception of this time will be so great that even the elect (and, yes,even some of the most esteemed/gifted of the elect like Piper and others) could be deceived and led away from the truth...and then lead others away as well. No one is so spiritually gifted or mature that they are above being deceived. No one! We are warned to constantly test everything, all teaching, and all teachers by the Word of God. Nowhere in Scripture are we EVER told to read a passage out of context and then go into a state of silence to wait for God to speak some word personally to us. (Give me chapter and verse where that is taught.)Yes,God DOES speak to us, but He speaks through His Word as we read and meditate on what it means. To do that, we must be alert, thinking, mulling it all over in our minds, not zoning out in a tranced state with empty minds. As the Sisters pointed out so well in their article, that is a practice used by all paganistic, occultic religions...but not Christianity.
ReplyDeleteNobody here implied that Piper's entire theology is flawed or that he hasn't been a faithful teacher of the Word for many years. On the contrary, several stated that they have been helped by his ministry. But lately, he has been veering off the path with his endorsement of Rick Warren and pragmatism and now encouraging mystical practices of Lecio Divina and going into silence to hear a mystical word from God. No one is above critical examination...no matter how long they have been a Christian or how faithful they were in the past. We are all are subject to the wiles of the enemy. (And doesn't it make sense that in Last Days the devil will target the most influential teachers among us. If he can deceive them, he can deceive their many followers as well.) Rather than being offended by this article, why not take the warning to heart and get informed about the issues at hand. What is contemplative or centering prayer? What is lecio divina? What is the history of these practices and are they truly Christian? Or are they New Age pagan practices that are being brought into the church to deceive many in these End Times and to help to usher in the One World Church? Google these topics and read with an open mind.. and above all pray for God to show you the truth about these things...from His Word. Search His Word. Are these practices taught there...or are they condemned? Above all, never put any man or teacher above the Word of God.
Rose - Much appreciated, and excellent thoughts.
ReplyDeleteS. Mitchell, I'm the one who said he's dropped the ball (including truth)- not Christine nor anyone else here. I take the responsibility. I apologize for not being so clear and not doing a more careful perusal of my writing.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate you pointing that error out on my part. To me the internet really does no justice trying to express properly what I actually mean sometimes. I meant He's dropped (truth)=Scripture ((as a whole)) for false teachings not that he doesn't still teach some truths, he does. But consider this: a cup of water with only a few drops of cyanide is all it takes to kill you. Satan mixes just a few lies and false teachings with majority of truth just the same-deadly my friend.
I would ask kindly and with gentleness and respect for you, why are you not more eclectic and prudent in your approach to this article and the sincerity of the Sola Sisters warnings by the exposure of this false practice? Anyone can find any article dissatisfying if it doesn't fit what they want to believe. As Christians who are controlled by the Holy Spirit and are sensitive to pleasing the Lord more than man, shouldn't we exemplify the highest standard and love for our Lord Jesus and have the greatest longing to look into God's perfect law for freedom(James 1:25)because we love the truth as well? It is for correction, for joy, hope, peace for our life?
---Shouldn't we understand that to get that log out of our own eye FIRST is essential to truly loving others with an unbiased attitude to let Christ shine through us his beauty so we can see more clearly to get the speck out of our brother's eye"? Isn't that what it truly means to be Christ-like?
Please be honest and ask yourself why do you defend John Piper more than the word of the living God? -Galatians 1:10.
"Better is open rebuke than hidden love". Proverbs 27:5
All said and done please read this caveat from someone whose been there and practiced this dangerous false teaching that you have now been exposed to and lend your heartily approval of.
quote-"The late Roman Catholic-Buddhist Thomas Merton, one of the most influential contemplative writers, described his own delusion in these frightful words: “In the end the contemplative suffers the anguish of realizing that he no longer knows what God is” (Merton, The New Seeds of Contemplation)”. ---end quote
now who is deceived by the angel of light?
The Bible is God's dictation. Let's us not ever doubt this.
ReplyDeleteDr. Piper is such a loving guy, i only hope his personal relationships with unsavory characters doesn't further inhibit his discernment. Praying for him. Well done Christine, very nice article.
ReplyDeleteAs a former Roman Catholic,born and raised, not knowing anything about the Bible, it was easy to travel down the road into the New Age realm. All of the mysticism made it an easy transition. I wanted to "experience" God.
ReplyDeleteWell, God, in His mercy, had another plan for me. He saved a wretch like me and for the last 25 years my life is in Him. His Word is all the revelation I need.
Stay away from all of these Roman Catholic practices. They lead to what I think will be the universal end time "religion". The old lie from the Garden," you can be like God". It's the old lie dressed up in New Ageism. Nothing new under the sun.
Glad your back, Christine. Missed your blog.
Thank you Anonymous, for this verification, and thank you for your encouraging words.
ReplyDeleteI have read most of what is said here and I find the typical arguments between evangelicals and Pentecostals still raging after a 100 years. I love hermeneutics and God's Word is my no1 source for what God has to say. That said I also hear God's voice not audibly but gently inside me, not as feeling but as words and often I find myself talking to God. I have seen angels and have been confronted by demons. Experienced miracles (real miracles not pseudo make believe stuff) Do I have to go into a state or trance etc to experience these things - no. It just is and is normal, no hype or emptying of my mind. Do I love Jesus Christ with all my heart, would I die for Him any day. Do I love every other Christian, yes I do. Do I believe that every other Christian will experience the same, no I dont. Should every Christian experience that, it does not matter because as long as they love God, love their fellow brothers and sisters and love the word with the purpose of bringing them to the knowledge of Jesus Christ then that is what matters. What should the Church guard against, 1 Forcing a sense of spiritualism that will lead to falseness and disappointment. 2 Denying anything outside our framework of understanding without proper open investigation in scripture. And here is the challenge because like the catholic church we as Christians burn or stone everything that does not fit in our subjective understanding. Even our interpretation of Scripture is subjective and gets tailored to fit our theology. Without realization we become the pharisees that crucify things we cannot understand or that does not fit into our world of understanding. I am not saying accept anything but what if like Gamaliel said in Acts we might be fighting the very works of God. I have the Word of God which I have read through many times with the acts to confirm that which I read and believe. I had a vision where Jesus Christ Himself told me the following " It is time that the church starts seeing things from My perspective and not from their perspective" The vision was specifically within the context of division within the church. Will what I say change ppl probably not only God can do that, but I fear when we get to Heaven we might be disillusioned that all the energy spent fighting within the body should have been spent in leading the lost to Christ. Americans it is time you change your country to reflect the greatness of God and you will only do this through unity. Until then America will continue to be the greatest tool in satans hand to lead the world astray (holiwood and they corrupted values, pornography, gay and lesbian rights, abortions, opulence and the list goes on) You are the greatest country in the world and hence you lead by example, sad to say not the example of Christ
ReplyDeleteJurgen Human
Sorry, Christine, didn't mean to be anonymous.
ReplyDeleteHope all is well, by the way.
pam
Anon @ 1:52:
ReplyDeleteSo many cliches- so little time
1- "burning and stoning"
Or gently disagreeing with a pagan practice that some Christians are trying to "Christianize." Hmmm- not really seeing the equivelancy there.
2- Scripture is so subjective - we just can't know for sure what it means.
That's the argument that agnostics make.
3- Holding up a belief or practice to scripture makes you a "Pharisee"
What does calling someone a Pharisee make you?
4- You need to stop wasting your time contending for the one true faith, and get out there and "lead lost people to Christ."
Well- if you can't know for sure what scripture says, and all versions of the truth are acceptable and equal- how do lead a lost person to Christ? And actually why would you need to?
5- American Christians just need to unify over fighting social ills- and that will break Satan's bondage over this country.
Jesus didn't die on the cross to save America- but to pay for the sins of wretched rebels who will come to Him in repentance and faith.
6- Oh- and the last one. We should believe that everything you say is the truth because Jesus Himsrlf is giving you personal visions and personal words.
This kind of goes to the heart of the post- and it's one of the main reasons we have this blog. At the end of the day- we must have some way to know for sure who God is, how we can be in relationship with Him, and what He has to say to us. His Word is perfect, reliable and absolutely sufficient. There is nothing that needs to be added to that. Nor is there anything else that we are willing to trust with our lives and our futures.
Well done, sister.
ReplyDeleteHelp!! I am just so confused by all this. I really don't know what to make of it all. As far as the whole "hearing from God" goes, I have never myself had the Lord speak to me that way. He speaks to me through His Word, so for awhile I just thought maybe there was something wrong with me. I have friends who write devotions which were "given to them by the Lord when He spoke to them". Sometimes they are written as if the Lord is speaking directly to them. I have seen on some other websites that possibly part of the reason there is such a divide when it comes to God speaking to us is because of the belief in cessation? Is that what it is all about or does the Bible speak specifically against these things? I just feel as though I don't know what to believe anymore. Any help or clarity on this would be greatly appreciated. God Bless and thank you so much for the work that you are doing in fighting for the truth of God's Word!
ReplyDeleteAnon @ 8:43
ReplyDeletePeople like you are another reason why we write this blog. My heart goes out to you. Christine and I both went through a period of a kind of disorientation when we really began sorting through all this stuff. Atleast it sounds like you study God's Word- and know that that is how God communicates with you. Continue to do that.
The reason Christine and I began researching all of these "Christianized" pagan practices is because we used to do them- when we were both into New Age theology. God saved us both within a couple of years of each other.
And then immediately we began to come across New Age practices, but everyone was calling it Christian.
There was "name it and claim it" which is basically the law of attraction that we had learned under New Age teachers- the premise here is that your thoughts and words have the power to create your reality. The Christinized version says your words and thoughts have power to create your reality if you have enough faith.
Then there was Theophostics- where a "Biblical" counselor has you center down, think of a painful memory, invite Jesus to come into the vision and talk to you. This is supposed to heal all your old wounds which are supposedly causing you to sin. (Yep- not even kidding about that one). But I had already done all that when I was in the New Age- but then it was
my "inner child" who came into my visions.
Then it was "Christian" yoga.
Then it was "Christian transcendental meditation"-also known as contemplative prayer.
Then it was spiritual warfare- binding demons and Satan, and breaking generational curses, etc.
One or both of us were discipled to do all this stuff.
When we were in the New Age- there are ALOT of teachers that claim to get direct messages from spirit guides- and they write these "messages" down. They are "channelers". A lot of New Age teachers tell you to find your own spirit guide. Some current Christian teachers and authors basically are making the same claim- but they say it is God who they are channeling.
So it was from this background that we began to research and study God's Word to figure out what the deal was. Did all of those pagan practices that God had saved us from become acceptable ways to worship God or acceptable ways to receive information/guidance from Him just for throwing a few scriptures on them.
But yes- the whole issue of cessationism vs. non cessationism does weigh in on a lot of these issues. The charismatic movement is HUGE and it is being embraced by mainstream evangelicalism. And basically what the non- cessationists believe is that cessationists don't believe that the Holy Spirit is at work- which is not true, but they keep telling us here on the blog to stop putting God in a box, and to believe that the Holy Spirit is at work. Believe you me- we know the Holy Spirit is alive and well and active in us. He points us to Jesus, and causes us to learn from his word and He empowers us in our ministries. We know that it is only the Holy Spirit who could raise these wicked wretches and God haters from the dead, and give us the eyes to see the futility of the New Age and to see the beauty of Christ.
But I digress.
Hang in there- God's Word is sufficient. It is solid. You will come out the other side of this stronger.
Look around our website- we have a lot of links to different resources. God bless you. Are you in a good Gospel centered church?
Thank you so much Cathy! That really does help me so much. I feel as though my husband and I are in that "disorientation" phase right now. From what I know now, we were saved in a word of faith church...not along the prosperity lines but more of the binding and loosing, breaking generational curses, speaking things into existence etc. We now go to a seeker sensitive church which we have not been happy with for awhile. My husband actually just wrote a long letter to the pastors about everything we have been seeing and how it does not line up with the Word so I am not sure how that will be received or if we will be labeled as divisive and asked to leave. He has felt as though we were supposed to be there to try to spread the Truth and witness to people within the church which I feel we have been faithful to. I just can't believe how far this deception has reached!
ReplyDeleteWe have been listening to a lot of John MacArthur's messages and they have been wonderful.
Thank you again for taking the time to answer my questions. Your blog really has been an invaluable tool for me and helped me to open my eyes even further to what is happening.
In Him, Elizabeth
The Title/Headline of your post "John Piper Encouraging Lectio Divina" is very disingenuous. The article you reference was written by Jonathan Parnell, not John Piper. You offer no evidence that John Piper knew about or approved this post. Perhaps he did, but I have a hard time believing that Piper personally reads every article that is posted on the Desiring God blog. For the record, I am no fan of lectio divina. But you seem to have a penchant for assuming the worst about your brothers on the flimsiest of "evidence". For example, quoting an author such as Merton doesn't mean I accept or approve of everything Merton might teach. If it did, I would have to question the orthodoxy of the Apostle Paul who quoted pagan philosophers and poets with approval. Does that mean he bought into their whole system? Obviously not. Your discernment ministry is terribly lacking in discernment.
ReplyDeleteTim Terhune - Perhaps I should have made it clear that I'm well aware that Jonathan Parnell was the author of the Lectio Divina article, not John Piper. I thought it would be obvious that I was drawing attention to the fact that John Piper's endorsement was implicit from the Desiring God logo which states "God Centered Resources From the Ministry of John Piper."
ReplyDeleteAnonymous January 10, 2012 1:52 PM said,,
ReplyDelete"It is time that the church starts seeing things from My perspective and not from their perspective" The vision was specifically within the context of division within the church."
So your personal "revelation" of Jesus and what he said to you supersedes Scripture and you never tested the spirits to see if it was from God?-1 John 4:1?
I have the Word of God as clear proof that what "Jesus Christ Himself" told you, He did not tell you. Your only proof is "Jesus Christ Himself" (told you). But you know, David Koresh could only offer the (same proof) as well and look where it got him.
Truth is not subjective as you assert.
Christianity is based on its object Jesus Christ and his bodily resurrection from the dead-history. Since he rose bodily from the grave then everything Jesus claimed is ironclad, all the prophets and the law is true because he himself lived his life according to God's word just like we should. God's word reflects His Character-Mal.3:6 "I the LORD do not change". -it applies to all people just the same for all time just like gravity applies to all people or crossing the street looking both ways applies to all. It's not relative and we cannot place the seat of authority within ourselves-selfish.. -Look to the cross
The Holy Spirit loves to give Jesus Christ ALL the glory and honor due his name in our lives as our greatest joy which satiates our deepest hunger and thirst (according to Scripture). -Mat.5:6
Any kind of Mysticism-centering prayer, extra-biblical revelations, Lecto Divina are all very self-centered looking within self. These unbiblical practices are(spiritually)adulterous for it always leads us away from God's word and giving God all the glory. It always looks to the "grass is greener" mentality which always leads people away from Jesus Christ being first and center in everything we do--This is why Paul said "godliness with contentment is great gain." People don't realize that the grass is always greenest above the septic tank also and that is precisely what these false practices are
Christians relying on the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth for true Joy,, always look outside of themselves to the Cross. fully satisfied.
"My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness"
Assumption of facts not in evidence. Your headline specifically accuses John Piper of personally encouraging Lectio Divina. As does the body of your post: "Dr. John Piper, pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis, is now straight up encouraging..." Maybe John Piper personally authorized and endorsed all the content of that post. Maybe he didn't. The point is we don't know. And we can't know without asking him or someone at DG. By your own admission you know that not all of the "resources" on the Desiring God website are "From the Ministry of John Piper." Many of them are written and provided by others. So you were aware before you wrote the headline that the logo is a general statement and does not mean every resource comes from Piper personally. With that in mind, your headline could have said: "John Piper's website enourages..." or "Desiring God's website..." or "Author on John Piper's website enourages..." Instead you accused John Piper personally without evidence. How does this square with Paul's assertion that love gives a brother or sister the benefit of the doubt? 1 Cor 13:7 Love is always eager to believe the best (rather than assume the worst) and put the most favorable construction on ambiguous actions. It seems to me that such an attitude is lacking at several points in your post. As believers shouldn't our standard of reporting and headline writing be better than that of a tabloid or the Drudge Report?
ReplyDeleteI have not accused John Piper personally, which is why I was careful to post the Desiring God logo. The buck has to stop with somebody, and per the Desiring God logo, it stops with Piper.
ReplyDeleteWhen you say "John Piper encourages..." and "Dr. John Piper, pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis, is now straight up encouraging..." is that not a personal accusation? You used the man's name and said he personally is doing this. You didn't say the organization is doing it. You accused the man himself. It matters little that you include a logo. Your statements specifically target John Piper personally. If I publish a headline "Christine Pack encourages Arianism" or "Christine Pack is now straight up encouraging Arianism" would that not be a personal accusation?
ReplyDeleteTim - We're going to have to agree to disagree here. Desiring God is John Piper's blog. If he doesn't want to be responsible for the writers on his own blog, then he needs to make sure the tagline "God Centered Resources from the Ministry of John Piper" gets removed. As it now stands, this article is given John Piper's blessing because of where it was published.
ReplyDeleteYour illustration is an apt one. There are several writers who publish occasionally on this blog besides me. And yes, I do take full responsibility for that.
Charlene sorry, I didn't see your statement- You said "Jehovah M., I heard the audio of the article transcript you mentioned, "The Morning I Heard the Voice of God". Did you read it through? I ask because when I first began to listen to it I thought, "uh-oh" but by time I got to the end I realized that",,,,,
ReplyDeleteCharlene I don't doubt subjective experiences when they ARE from God. I don't throw out all experiences are bad because they are not. I try and be quite careful and prudent for the sensitivity of this blog and the audience it's needing to reach. I've had many in my life that no doubt were from God. However, Satan can take scripture just the same just like he did with Jesus in the desert.
We DO have Experiences from God-Romans 5:5 and even throughout the Psalms David expresses quite personally his along with the truth.
However those experiences are ONLY that --(subjective) and I consider them to being what should be kept private between you and the Lord just like you or I wouldn't go around telling people our private bedroom experiences with our spouse to others. it's plain wrong and very dangerous.
Unlike you, what I believe about John Piper is different. I've never disliked him and I still don't. I learned about Piper 6 years ago listening to him on my Christian radio and decided to check him out on the internet by listening to some more of his sermons. The more I listened to his sermons though, the more something just didn't settle well with me about Piper ---that was then. His messages seem to have a proclivity towards emphasizing a slightly mystical tone and a more poignant type message than sincerity for the love and purity of the truth of God's word (itself). He's not ironclad like John MacArthur is. Maybe it's just my style and nothing was wrong with Piper. I’ve always been very narrow-mined in my thinking even before I was saved.
Ok, I see what you are saying. Better to be narrow-minded than wide-minded *g*
DeleteCharlene, you're spot on Sister and thanks for your scrutiny ~
Deletethat still doesn’t sound right though. It sounds like I'm narrow-minded with everything. I meant I'm very narrow-minded when it comes to the truth. But, I was like that (before) I was saved.
I add this as a preliminary caution in hopes of anyone who may come across this since it sounds so from God, that they will have a good benchmark for testing the spirits to see if they are from God"~~~
DeleteOne extremely important test “The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy”-Rev.19:10. If what spirit is speaking the (whole time) even if it's about the great acts that God did in the bible but never ONCE referring to Jesus or exalting Jesus, then you have a counterfeit. Notice that when Piper was listening “to God” speak to him and ALL the great things this spirit referred himself to as doing in the Old Testament--"'WHO was exalted"? The spirit was exalting (himself) and never ONCE JESUS. That's a counterfeit spirit.
Also we're in the New Testament now. Satan doesn't mind referring and cloaking himself with the disguise of any of God's word, any of God's acts just so long as it has nothing to do with Jesus being exalted, praised, or worshiped.
My thoughts - I was at the Passion 2012 conference. Moore and Piper did not read bible verses out of context, as mentioned in a previous comment,the full book of Ephesians was read.
ReplyDeleteWhen I read the scripture I pause in silence and think about what I just read - this is what was going down at the conference. Does not the Spirit teach us in such a way...through reading and hearing the word of God? I did not discern at all that I was being led in what is being mentioned in this blog, Mysticism -centering prayer. what's wrong with being silent and letting the scripture sink in - His word spoken to us? What's wrong with contemplating in silence with what you just heard? Would you prefer 42,000 students talking at the same time while the scripture was being read?
I agree there is a trend in Christianity to mysticism - I sensed this numerous years ago within the Catholic Church and Judaism.
I'm not necessarily a Moore or Piper fan, only meaning that I do not do their bible studies, etc. but I was there at the conference and did not sense at all the charge here of Lectio Divina.
The word of God, the full book of Ephesians was read and we were prompted to think/hear/respond to what was read...that's all it was and if it was Lectio Divina, I did not pick up on it at all.
As far as Moore and Piper posting things on their website, of that, I am clueless.
Allison P.
"Jesus speak to me" after God ((just spoke)) from the reading of His word? hello.. That's kind of doublespeak is that not? Subliminal suggestions in nature.
Delete"Doublespeak disguises the nature of the truth, {{{producing a communication bypass}}}"-wikipedia.. deception is very subtle and seductive.
It's unnoticeable to you because they are slowly but surely incrementalizing credulous people and unstable people by building/warming you up to this false practice just like The boiling frog story.
I do believe that scripture is the ultimate authority and yes scripture is all sufficient for every believer. I am not surprised at the easy one line answers to dispel my points put forth, neither am I surprised at the disdain and contempt my points were dealt with. I have seen it before and sadly will not be the last time it will be dealt in such a manner. Scripture is not subjective but is all sufficient but sadly your ability to be objective is as small as your ability to understand God. DO I have to point out the principles of hermeneutics and the challenges interpretation of scripture are faced with. You assume that your theology with regards to relationship is cast in rock, and please I am not speaking of foundational doctrinal issues as professed in the apostolic creed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostles%27_Creed in case you did not know what I spoke of.Those I agree with. Your assumptions that God does not and will not speak in modern day times to people other than scripture is not based on proper Biblical exposition but rather on opinion and scriptural interpretation that follows the same pattern as cults or false religions. Your inability to even discuss possibilities other than your stance mirrors the same attitude that the founding fathers of the reformation faced in the Catholic Church. Now I am not saying there is not a lot of hocus pocus going on in the church and I am not saying we do not need to be vigilant in fighting false doctrine but what I am saying is you are missing the plot and like the Pharisees not entering in and hindering others from entering in. Luk11:52. Secondly I see a lot of talk and opinions being thrown around, but what do you back up your opinions with, more words (I am referring to scripture pulled out of context)I believe that God can speak to people other than through scripture but that what ever is said will always be inline and in support of scripture. Personal revelations will never dictate doctrine but can be life giving by revealing the principles of scripture. I believe God and His Word and have seen the power of God, you believe different and have seen nothing so why would I then believe your stance if you do not even do the same as the founding fathers of each mainstream Protestant denomination 1Co 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
ReplyDelete"I believe God and His Word and have seen the power of God, you believe different and have seen nothing so why would I then believe your stance"
DeleteJurgen, this comment implies that scripture is not all sufficient for every believer. It would seem that you have *more* revelation of God than Christine who *only* relies on her Bible. It implies that others cannot "enter in" if they are not experiencing something outside of God's Word. Wherever the gospel is preached, people may enter in. The Pharisees prevented folks from "entering in" by binding them to the Law and a works-based salvation system instead of pointing them to the Savior. What the Pharisees missed was not some mystical power, an extra edge or benefit, but the Savior Himself. That's huge.
You said: "Your inability to even discuss possibilities other than your stance mirrors the same attitude that the founding fathers of the reformation faced in the Catholic Church."
I would say just the opposite. Christine's stance mirrors the attitude that the Catholic Church faced in the Reformers. The Reformers are the ones that were "divisive", so to speak, and didn't back down even unto death. I think that means that they would not even discuss possibilities other than their biblical stance and that's why they often met with a grisly end. And I do believe she's discussing the other possibilities; she's just not agreeing with them. No disdain or contempt intended here. Just sayin'.
Jurgen, I can't speak for others here and I recon your response is not directed at me as I mistakenly thought at first.
DeleteI'll share nevertheless something very, very important and most dear to my heart about (WHY) I am so ardent and staunch with the word of God-Sola Scriptura. For me, it's not (just) the truth I defend so passionately but it is (because of) the truth that I came to know God as my Father through Jesus Christ. You see, I did not have a very nice earthly father and I didn't know true love. But when God gave me His Son and all my sins were washed away, God's love flooded my heart and I fell in love with a Person I became aware was with me for the first time in my life(Jesus) and it was because of the (truth) God's word that I came to know God as MY FATHER and His love. I do NOT say any of this with "easy one line answers" but with the utmost care and respect for God who is Holy. I am motivated by Who God is (according to Scripture) because I came to know HIM (according to Scripture). I long to honor and give HIM the obeisance from in my heart due his holy precious name.
I am thoroughly convinced according to Scripture that it is God's word and only God's word that gives us (the faith) to believe in Jesus Christ-because it was God's word I read 2 weeks prior that lead me to the conviction and utter hopelessness of how impossible it was for me to obey God's word. I had to be brought to a dead end -brick wall in my life and God's word convicted me of that poverty and killed me. Faith really does come from hearing the message and the message is heard through the word of Christ"-Romans 10:17.
It was the TRUTH that came alive and lifted off the page after I was saved-Matthew 5:6 as if I were that one person God spoke to out of a stadium packed with people.That right there sealed it for me and God's word became more precious to me than all the riches of this world. It's living and active and it sometimes really does become a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. It really is true what Jesus said in John 8:31.
beyond Scripture you will have error. Scripture contains nothing but truth and is free from error~~it is the safest and greatest place to do our thinking. So why would anyone want to go for anything outside of Scripture that contains error? God speaks to us through the Holy Spirit but he takes Scripture and teaches us and reminds us of everything Jesus has spoken. -John 14:26
I have read your responses and I agree from the outset that the Word of God is all sufficient. I am finding the following reasoning, either or, black or white, and not in terms of sin am I advocating grey, but this is what I am understanding in your reasoning. Since the Word of God is all sufficient therefore God will not speak to any man. Since the Word of God is complete any other means of communication of God is unnecessary and therefore will not happen.
DeleteI am also finding the following comparison: if God should speak to one and not to the other then the one would be less spiritual or a lesser Christian (this I am seeing in between the lines as a reasoning to negate the possibility of God speaking on a more personal level)
I am also seeing the argument that if God would speak to a person that would be seen as adding to the scripture thus relegating the canon of scripture to an incomplete state.
Firstly Scripture is complete and God does not need to say anything other than what is written. God will not add or take away from scripture in this life or the next to come, it is eternal. Secondly if God did speak which I believe He does He would always speak in line with, to confirm the written canon which we have. If God should speak to one and not to another that would be His sovereign right to do and in no way would exalt one believer above the other, because God is no respecter of persons.
I am in agreement with the position you take with regards to the sovereignty and completeness of scripture. I am even in agreement with regards to the caution of trying to force people to hear from God, and develop methodologies in order to 'hear'
What I am against is firstly that you have decided that God will not speak to man other than through scripture, and have no proper scriptural basis for this ideology or doctrine. This is a scary position for me since it seems prescriptive to God and in my eyes touches blasphemy. You have built the doctrine around logical deduction (which has its roots in Hellenistic roots the foundation of our modern society), if scripture is this then God will do and not do this. I say God can and will speak to man and have a huge scriptural basis for the development of such a doctrine. (the whole Bible is full of examples of God speaking to man)
So if God does speak to me and not to you how does it position us apart? In no way at all, God's love and grace and mercy is the same for us as it was for Jesus Christ God does not elevate or work according to a system of good better and best children.
What does sadden me is that through your doctrine you are denying God the right to speak to you as a father would to a child. You quote relationship, and me being a father myself know the importance of communication and the desire to spend time with my kids, I that am imperfect how much more not my Heavenly Father.
KJV "God said" 30 matches. "the Lord said" 219 matches, I can God on to show scriptural precedence. So here is my challenge, show me in scripture where it says that God will stop speaking to us as people. (please not 1Cor.13 because the context for that is laying down the principle that God is love and not the cessation of languages etc)
The break from ministry will also serve as a period for him to work on his marriage to his wife of 41 years.
ReplyDeleteBumper Sticker Printing
Jurgen-
ReplyDeleteI assure you God speaks to me all the time, and it is amazing. He is bold, He is clear, He is a great communicator. Sometimes it is tender, sometimes confrontive, but regardless, it is always God speaking- of that, i have no doubt whatsoever. And all that He says to me is binding and authoritative, and it is sufficient not only for my salvation, but also for my sanctification (1 Timothy 3: 14-17).
We believe the canon is closed- God has given us everything we need to live this life by faith (the Holy Spirit, a regenerated heart, His Word) until we see Him with our eyes in the next.
Obviously - you disagree with that. You believe God speaks outside of His scripture. We do not claim what God will or won't do- He can do anything that He pleases. We do believe that He will do what He has promised to do (sanctify us with truth, and continually renew our minds as we learn of Him.)
You say personal revelations never dictate doctrine- I find this to be a strange but not that uncommon of a statement from people who claim personal words from God. I think that diminishes God's Word. If it's really God's Word, as you claim- then it is binding and authoritative, and it must dictate doctrine.. However- this is how cults are often started (Joseph Smith.)
So even by your own words, you don't put personal revelations on par with God's Word.
The discussion is about Lectio Divinia - and it seems you agree that LD is a man made device that seeks to get a personal revelation from God- and you agree that it is not good. I hope you can see that Christians who believe that personal words from God are normative are very prone to being enticed by Lectio Divinia and other mystical practices.
ok maybe I should qualify by using a personal experience. I had a inperfect father role model. God gave me a vision of where He took me through a hospital boasting that I was His son. It made the scripture in Rom.8 and so many other scripture clear to me on a very personal level. In no way does it add to scripture or giveanother dimension to not revealed in scripture. All it did was reveal that which was already written. The fault may be mine for not being able to see scripture to its fullest but God chose to give me a vision to reveal that which was already written.
ReplyDeleteI never once meant or implied that God does not speak to you or a person who only believes in the same manner.
I also believe canon to be closed, I just believe that God still speaks within the confines of scripture. It is actually so simple to understand. But be this as it may I want to thank you for this discussion and it has been really informative and in many ways thought provoking.
God Bless
Jurgen Human
Well sometimes we just needs some catharsis
ReplyDeletehttp://truthinator.wordpress.com/2012/01/13/tel-lectio-divina-humor/
Sola Scriptorum is but one of the 5 Solas. May I remind the cessationists (those who believe that God communicates to His children exclusively via Scripture) that there are contemporary examples of God speaking directly to people. The six re-enacted stories of Muslims coming to faith through visions, dreams or personal encounters with the Lord are depicted in the evangelistic video "More than Dreams". Scripture is important, just as an owners manual is for a car; however, reading the owners manual as helpful as it might be, is not the same as actually driving the car.
ReplyDeleteIn our daily living, prayer for direction and purpose in specific situations is entirely proper and para-Scriptural. God's sovereignty IS limited by His faithfulness to His word. Illumination may contradict the constrained religion of the cessationist, but never Scripture. The fact that there are many passages of the New Testament devoted to the proper handling of the supernatural gifts of the spirit should give the Bible Moths some pause to consider.
Some have raised the issue that those who claim such experiences are also claiming to be"better Christians" or more spiritual than believers who do not hear from God in a similar manner. The simple answer is that the sharing of gifts among the body of believers would suggest that the difference is not a claim to superiority(1Cor12:12-31). However, the unbelief in such gifts operating today is itself quenching, vexing and a denial of the Holy Spirit, injuring the church by depriving it of the gifts of particular members.
Satan hates these gifts and seeks to construct dazzling pagan counterfeits on one hand as well as sow the dragon's teeth seeds of stubborn unbelief on the other. I would suggest that the stubborn unbelief in our day might be stemming from envy as much as from a desire to protect the flock from heresy.
Heresy hunting evangelicals are already setting up the circular firing squad over doctrinal issues, the emerging church, seeker friendly, homosexuality and the thousands of nits that we love to pick at. It has been said that we are willing to die for our faith, but ready to kill over doctrine. We in our Laodicean churches hope that we can fix the deadness by clinging to dry bones. Look carefully at whether it is really doctrine that is dividing us here, or merely worship culture. Of course, God speaks to us through Scripture; however, to deny parallel means of illumination for the purpose of direction is putting God into a box that would be limited to those who are literate (for one). In church history, God has spoken to his illiterate people through nature, through the manmade architecture of the great cathedrals, through other people and at times directly (or through a heavenly messenger). 1John 4 exhorts us to test the spirits via Scripture, which would seem to allow for such parallel means, BUT which are to be Biblically confirmed.
Wesley's quadrilateral of Scripture, tradition, reason and experience does not exclude experience; however, the latter three means of grace are ALWAYS to be subordinate to the Scriptures!
I am not arguing that we sweep this issue under the rug for the sake of blanderized unity, but rather that we look to Scripture to discover the error of our misinterpretation and rigid misapplication of Sola Scriptorum.
We are thankful that we are saved by grace, through the merit of the blood of Christ and not by our religion. Perhaps it is safer to stay in the boat, insofar as emultions, deceptions and counterfeit gifts abound; nevertheless, our stubborn unbelief in spiritual gifts that became less normative following the canon, may be depriving the post-modern church of our day from a yet vital means of grace.
Elliot, you have several comments that are too involved and digress from the subject of this post~Lectio Divina
DeleteI disagree with some (not all)of what you've stated. The Apostolic Gifts have ceased- Not ALL the gifts just the Apostolic Gifts. I say this with the sincerity that if we do a serious perusal all the way to Revelation to the time of John we will see that most all of the Apostolic Gifts like the gift of healing tapered off and ceased by then--just one example..
here's a great article to read although I'm not in a 100% agreement even with this article nevertheless it is very sound-http://www.metropolitantabernacle.org/Sword-And-Trowel/Sword-and-Trowel-Articles/Proving-that-Charismatic-Gifts-Have-Ceased
I will address this because it is most important:
I've noticed that most people will present polemics by the truckload with all their might into trying to prove God speaks beyond Scripture but the very same people who call themselves a Christian will not put forth the SAME effort to defend the word of God with all their might-the very word that supposedly set them FREE and gave them eternal life. The very word that gave us the Supreme treasure we have in Jesus. Why is that?
When you love someone with all your LIFE, your very being and existence because they have forgiven you of the eternal debt you could never pay and you are devoted to them, doesn't it normally follow that you love everything they say? Its strangely inconsistent to say the least for people to say I'm a Christian, yes I love Jesus and yet they don't love God's word and fail to prove they love God's word by defending the truth with the very words that saved them.
I had a Paul conversion and have no right to compare my "experience" with others. All I can do is be honest and forthright. But for me I know when I was first saved the word of God became more precious to me than all the riches of this world. I carried my bible with me everywhere-literally. I'd read it every chance I had even at stop lights. Problem was all the lights started turning green. I couldn't wait to go to Church and I loved reading the word of God and sharing with other Christians. Problem I saw was How come they didn't respond to God's word the same way as I did?? I knew they were Christians but something was missing. I had to learn to be careful not to compare. Over the years I can see now how come when life's cares set in and problems weigh heavy
My grief and concern is what's most important here for Christians to defend especially in these last days that are so evil. Are we paying careful attention to what we are truly attacking? Are we picking and choosing our battles wisely? Are we just causing controversy by wanting to be right - pedantic nitpicks which I'm guilty of doing or are we truly being God's ambassadors and being wise?-Pr.11:30b "he who wins souls is wise".
One very important characteristic of a person who has truly been born again (IS) his or her hunger for the pure word of God like newborn babes. I challenge anyone and my advise is that if a person has never had that hunger for God's word (ever)and they have never had even once in their "conversion" God's word as becoming more precious than Gold,,then I would challenge them to check under the hood and test and see if they are truly saved or not. I challenge anyone to check and see if they have rested their very LIFE in total submission to God's word as final authority. If a person truly knows the Author of Scripture personally then certainly they can rest assured that they can trust in the very word of God with their life.
If a person finds they cannot stake their life on the word of God when all props are knocked out from under them, then check and see why you lack the confidence. Maybe that person has never truly received Jesus and they need to surrender their life to total bended knee to God's WORD as Final Authority so they can be set FREE??